6.  Project No. 45&46, Houston Road 	Van Etheridge
Technical Advisory Committee Recommendation

ETHERIDGE: I think it was in November the Executive Committee referred this project back to the Technical Committee and asked them to re-look at the project and the Technical Committee decided to commission new traffic studies to look at an

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independent analysis of what the traffic volumes were on Houston Road now considering all the changes that have happened out there in the last few years and the growth that's taken place and our firm commissioned Post, Buckley, Schuh & Jernigan to do this study and Jim Evans was hired to do that and we have a copy of his report in here and also his cover letter that goes with the report. Jim's here today and I'd like to call on him to go over that report with ya'll.

JUSTICE: Please.

JIM EVANS: Thank you Van.

MORELAND: If I can have one preliminary word. We've been hiring experts. Bob Fountain always makes me cringe by saying we've hired the best. Among engineers there are folks that are known how to do traffic modeling or not. Jim Evans is the best traffic modeler in the south east...

EVANS: As Van indicated, Moreland Altobelli had contracted with us to do the traffic study for Houston Road. We looked at a number of factors, we looked at existing traffic counts which is shown in the figures that you have in front of you, and we looked at the (coughing in background) (numbers?) that had been projected by M.A.T.S. in terms of the 1988 to 2015 number of households that were anticipated to be there in that period along with the employment increase and we show that in Table 1 in the information that you have. What you'll see also is a graphic that shows that a number of what we call traffic analysis are shown to be high growth traffic zones in the area that would have impact on Houston Road. We also got information concerning recent committed development in the area. What we found was that if we look at the number of housing units that have been recently permitted that it almost matches what was currently planned for in M.A.T.S. by the year 2015, so the growth that is actually occurring in the area is occurring at a faster rate than originally had been anticipated. We also looked at the traffic volumes from really 1984 through 1997 in terms of what is the traffic volumes actually done in that area, and what we find is that during that period you have an average annual growth in the range of 2 to 6%. Around 3% traffic will double every 20 years, so we're showing in some cases 6% growth, which means traffic is going to more than double in the next 20 years, which is the traditional design period for a project. Based on that information, we revisited some of the M.A.T.S. traffic zone estimates and did what we call a traffic assignment using a program called CorSound (sp). Based on that what you see in the 3 (coughing in background) are estimates of the year 2025 traffic for what we call the no-build alternate which is no new interchange in the area with 1-75. Alternate 1 is then for interchange at Sardis

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Church Road with 1-75 and then Alternate 2 is for a new interchange with a new facility south of Sardis Church Road. Basically What we found is that under the no build alternate the volumes on Houston Road will go up about 14, 15,000 on the southern end on the way to 30,000 in terms of (the section) between Sardis Church and Hartley Bridge and then about 24, 25,000 on the northern end (of) Houston Road that being with no new interchange on 1-75 in the area. Under those conditions actually Houston Road would need to be really considered for 6 lanes between Sardis Church and Hartley Bridge. The typical warrants for 4 lanes are around 24,000 and if you get above (that) you need to begin to consider on a technical level a 6 lane facility. The Georgia D.O.T. currently says that if you have above 25,000 vehicles a day, you need to consider a raised median, so that will show that under the no build alternate you need to at least have a raised median on Houston between Sardis Church and Hartley Bridge. The other could be a 4 lane with a center turn lane as a fifth lane. Under Alternate 1 ... what you see is the volumes on Houston Road in the range between about 14, 15,000 on the southern end to 24,000 in the Sardis Church Hartley Bridge Road section about 21,000 on the north end. This would indicate that a 4 lane section with center flush median would serve. The 24,000 is beginning to get on the, if you will, the edge of when you start to consider a median, but it is below that threshold, what I might want to do is go back and look at Hartley Bridge Road on the no build alternate, what you will see is that the volumes on Hartley Bridge Road will be in the 24,000 vehicles a day category. Definitely a 6 lane facility. Six lane facilities do not need to be built unless they have a center median.., under alternate 1 a 4 lane facility with a flush median or with median, either one, would work.., under alternate 2 which is the new interchange south of Sardis Church Road the volumes on Houston Road are in the range of 12,000 on the southern end to about 21,000 on the north end... Are there any questions?

SCHOLL: Did you take actual traffic counts?

MAYOR: Mr. Chairman

JUSTICE: Excuse me, we have a...

(Scholl repeated his question)

EVANS: The volumes that we got were from counts that had been made by Georgia D.O.T. and by Moreland Altobelli.

MEGGS: No new traffic counts were ever done?

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EVANS: These were 1997 traffic counts.

MAYOR: Mr. Evans, I assume all your models depend upon projected future land use. 
EVANS: Yes sir.

MAYOR: And you said that projected future land use that you relied upon was one established by our M.A.T.S. committee?

EVANS: That was the beginning basis for it, yes. We modified that simply because that growth had already taken place by the currently permitted development.

MAYOR: We've got a Planning & Zoning Commission that constitutionally has authority to control land use in Bibb County as a separate body. The Planning & Zoning Commission approves a comprehensive plan... I guess my question is, have you looked at whatever our comprehensive plan is?

EVANS: Yes. It's basically low density residential...

MAYOR: So your traffic projections are consistent and based upon Planning & Zoning's projected future use for this area, which is low density residential?

RYLE . . . He's not talking about changing lanes. What he's saying is, development is going to take place quicker . . . he's not saying (it will be) changed from a residential to a commercial...

MAYOR: I guess my question for the two of you . . . is do you agree? Is this what's going to happen in this area?

RYLE: It's grown a lot quicker than we had anticipated...

MAYOR: Have you reviewed this study done by Mr. Evans and you've seen what the study is based upon and you agree with the foundation for the study and you have no reason to question the validity of the study or its accuracy?

RYLE: No.

BENNY PUCKETT: Can I ask you one question? Would an additional artery, because we have 2 arteries, 1-75 and Hwy 247, would an additional artery between those two

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connecting that community with downtown Macon with an extension of Bloomfield Drive across the interstate to Hartley Bridge Road, wouldn't that be a significant relief from the traffic in those 2 arteries?

EVANS: Without going into a great deal of detail, the traffic on 1-75, a great deal of that traffic, is non local traffic. Most of the traffic on 247 is generated locally.., and so the reliefofI-75 although there is a significant amount of utility gained by the local area having that, the actual volumes on 1-75 are not that greatly impacted by local traffic. There is a high percentage of non-local traffic that is on 1-75, especially in that area.

PUCKETT: The traffic on Houston Road is that local traffic?

EVANS: That would be local traffic, yes sir.

PUCKETT: So you can relieve 247 by having an additional artery?

EVANS: To some extent, but the growth in that area in terms of housing units, for each housing unit that you build you're going to bring in 10 additional trips, ok?

PUCKETT: An additional route gives you relief on the two lane artery.

EVANS: Right. If you don't have Houston Road then they would have to somehow go over 247 or back to 1-75 assuming that (coughing in background) an existing interchange structure on 1-75 (too faint to hear)

PUCKETI': I guess my thought is that a lot of the residential traffic out there is going to the Macon Mall· The more direct you can go out there then the more you relieve the two that you have to go around

EVANS: We did not look at new facilities on new locations other than the southern east west which is not really in the direction of the travel movements in that corridor.

FOUNTAIN: Ben, what you said makes sense, if we could afford it. It's a good route

RYLE: But it can be done a lot less expensively than that. (Several people speaking at once.)

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UNKNOWN WOMAN: Yeah but would Pio Nono be able to handle the traffic from 247 and Houston if Houston was 5 or 6 lane road? Pio Nono wouldn't be able to handle it.

JUSTICE: Excuse me. Mr. Martin?

MARTIN: Thank you, Mr. Chakman. Excuse me for looking at this from a common sense point approach, but what I'm understanding is that your saying that volume of traffic dictates numbers of lanes, basically. If that were the case on the interstates, and God forbid in Atlanta, but the interstates should be 48 lanes wide with 24 medians. Now I'm having a hard time putting an interstate on Houston Road. I don't understand the concept between traffic counts and having 6 lanes on Houston Road when you have an interstate that carries 100,000 times more traffic, and it' s only 4 lanes with a median.

JUSTICE: Mr. Martin, 475 is in the process of being re-done as we speak. I guess it's started, hasn't it, and there adding two more lanes.., so you're going to be going to 6 lanes on 475. I think I've heard that 75 coming through Macon eventually is going to be 6 lanes as well, is that correct?

MARTIN: So, we're building our Houston Road as an interstate?

JUSTICE: Oh no, just the contrary.

MAYOR: With the conversations I've had with Walter Kulash I understand that the problems with these local roads is caused by turning movements and curb cuts and things like that. The interstate doesn't have that and so the traffic, it's kind of like the difference between a healthy set of arteries around your heart and an unhealthy set of arteries that harden if you've got a whole bunch of cholesterol in there that's clogging things up. Basically all the turning movements, left and right and curb cuts and what not is what necessitates having a little bit more room than you'd need on an interstate.

UNKNOWN MALE: What I don't understand sir is that as inexpensive as a hard traffic count is, you lay a hose or they've got new measuring devices now why, as important as this study is, a hard traffic count wasn't taken, and I understand that's what was.

UNKNOWN MALE: Do you think the traffic count has gone down since 1997?

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UNKNOWN MALE: No. I'd just like to know what it is.

JUSTICE: He's basing it on even lower figures.

UNKNOWN FEMALE: Well then what was the lower figure?

EVANS: The existing traffic count is about 6,000 on the south end to about a little over 12,000.

UNKNOWN FEMALE: So you've more than doubled it.

EVANS: In certain cases, yes.

UNKNOWN FEMALE: Residential traffic has more than doubled in one year.

EVANS: No.

UNKNOWN FEMALE: You're going how far? How many years?

EVANS: 25.

UNKNOWN FEMALE: So you're planning that for our children and grandchildren. Have you ever, ever been on a 4, 5, or 6 lane road that it wasn't commercial?

EVANS: Yes.

UNKNOWN FEMALE: Where?

EVANS: Cobb County. Piedmont Road.

UNKNOWN FEMALE: Bibb County doesn't have any.

JUSTICE: We're getting way off the subject here. Mr. Scholl?

SCHOLL: I just have a couple technical questions. The last thing that was considered was Doug Haye's plan, which moves the interchange south, but Mr. Hayes plan had an access road to the east of 75 that doesn't appear on the plan that you have and I wondered if that made any difference?

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JUSTICE . . . What really shocked me is that not only do we have to address Houston Road by what these figures have come back (as) and it pretty much solidifies what M.A.T.S. has recommend for years. Not only Houston Road needs to be addressed but Hartley Bridge as well as Sardis Church... so we're going to be between a rock and a hard place. Once Houston Road is done, we're going to have to come back and look at Hartley Bridge and Sardis Church too as what's got to be done on those. These are the kinds of things that we've got to plan for and I know there going to gouge some people and some people are going to be unhappy with these kind of things but you know, my God, we can't just shut our community down to where they can't move from point A to point B. We've been criticized for not being pro active now where trying to be a little pro active we get criticized so what so we do? We've got authority after authority after authority coming back and saying this is what needs to be done and other roads around it need to be addressed as well. Vernon?

RYLE . . . The reason they use (the 19)97 (figures) is that the figures we use are based on annual averages. If you lay out the tubes across the street during Christmas, you're going to have a lot more traffic and it' s not going to be representative...

JUSTICE: I'll be honest with you, we have a letter here in this folder (agenda package) from the Technical Committee from Mr. Fountain... Van, you can address (this letter)

ETHERIDGE: What I was going to say was Mr. Evans gave this report to the Technical Committee some time back and as a result of that the Technical Committee authorized the Chairman, Mr. Bob Fountain to write this letter to you.., and basically what it says is that the new traffic study and volume reaffirm the need for a 4 lane with a flush median as presently designed. The proposed facility that is being recommend will be adequate for the next 25 years. At it's December 17th meeting (the Technical Advisory Committee) recommend that we continue on as Houston Road is planned and that as you we're just mentioning that this study be referred to M.A.T.S. for future project implementation became its evident that another project is going to be needed to be done in this area.

JUSTICE: I'm proud that we've asked Mr. Evans to come in who's a good authority as I understand it with a reputation in his company to come in and look at these things and give us kind of a second opinion. We, under the recommendations and all of the information that we have presently it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that we're going to be in a heap of trouble out in south Bibb County, not only in addressing Houston Road but we're also going to have to look at, and I don't know where we're going to get the money to do it, Hartley Bridge and Sardis Church Road or we're going

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to be in a world of trouble in the next number of years. This is the kind of information that elected officials have to have or we're going to wind up with the same kind of predicament that we've had on Northside Drive and Zebulon Road where people were begging us, they couldn't move from point A to point B. The committee's already taken a position that this is a go project. Do you all want to reconfirm this again today?

MAYOR: Mr. Chairman, if I could, very briefly. We've got a bevy of experts here . . . recommending that we go to 4 lanes on Houston Road and it' s been suggested that Mr. Kulash is in opposition, so that we've got an expert on the other side. I know there was an article in the paper yesterday that might have sited some of the language in Mr. Kulash's letter of January 5th to Mr. Etheridge that was shared with all of us on the Executive Committee and I don't know whether everybody whose here today has a copy of that letter. I don't know whether CAUTION Macon has received a copy of that letter, but what I'd like to do is share a little bit of that letter with you now, which might shed some light on what Mr. Kulash's view would be assuming that these projected traffic counts are (coughing in background). His letter says that, and this is a direct quote," The appropriate threshold for widening to 4 lanes can range widely, varying from 12,000 and 20,000 daily vehicles." So he's suggesting in some instances it' s appropriate to widen to 4 lanes if the average daily traffic counts is only 12,000 and perhaps you can get away with just 2 lanes up to 20,0000 and that depends upon how you design your road, and then the next 2 paragraphs he says you go to 4 lanes when it's only 12,000 if basically there is uncontrolled sort of urban suburban sprawl growth along the roadway. He says if it's just going to be strip commercial businesses and their need for driveway cuts, new public and private streets intersecting the highway, lots of driveways then you've got a disaster and you're going to have to have 4 lanes. He' s also told me on another occasion that no one on this earth really can stop this from happening once you put a 4 or 5 lane road in, that inevitably this kind of development is going to happen if you put a 4 or 5 lane road in there. On the other hand he says if your able to really tightly control use along the road then you can get away with having 20,000 a day, and I guess that's kind of consistent with the fact that the interstate can hold 120,000 a day and only have 4 lanes whereas a local road with 4 lanes couldn't possibly do anything like that. He says limitations on residential density, preservation of rural land, presence of large unbillable land areas, wetlands, parks, etc, restriction of commercial development, confinement of commercial activity to town and village centers, those are the sorts of land use criteria that would permit you (to have) just a 2 lane road and not widen to 4 lanes, but the range here is 12 to 20 and in order to get to 20 you've gotta have those types of circumstances . . . now I haven't seen us have that kind of (tight) control in Macon and Bibb County ever in our history, and from

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what I can tell, we're not going to have that kind of control in Macon and Bibb County in the near future. It may be that we'll wise up and conclude that that's the direction we ought to head in and in some point in our future we'll have that kind of control but we don't have it now and Mr. Kulash has even said to me on a past occasion that it's going to take the Almighty to maintain that kind of control in most instances in his experience across the United States. It's hard for me to believe that that' s going to happen here. I know Don Tussing and Vernon Ryle in the past have told me that they didn't think this Houston Road widening to 4 lanes with a mm lane made any sense, but I hear them saying now that they're in agreement with the projected future land use for the 2015 period of time and that they've got no quibble with Mr. Evans description of the average daily traffic volumes that we can expect in 2015 and 2025· So now I'm looking at Mr. Evans maps, and you all (audience?) don't have them in front of you and assuming that Don and Vernon are right and all of our other experts seem to agree with that, the projected average daily traffic volumes are in excess of the 20,000 for those parts of the road that we're talking about widening to 4 lanes and Kulash' s upper limit is 20,000, now I say this to suggest that Mr. Kulash, if he accepts the projection made by our planners concerning future use here and if he accepts that Mr. Evans is in fact the expert Tom Moreland describes him to be and has the right traffic counts then Mr. Kulash is going to conclude, I believe, that 4 lanes is appropriate (since) 20 is his upper limit for 2 lanes. Now I don't know that to be the case. Walter Kulash has sent us a
memo . . .

FOUNTAIN: Jim, you've got 4 recommendations. You've got local engineering, and
local . . . 

MAYOR: Excuse me Bob. Walter Kulash has sent us a letter saying that he is willing . . .

JUSTICE: But let me say that Mr. Kulash is not running this program, Mr. Mayor, Moreland Altobelli is running this program and let me say that we have got expert opinions from up and down the line on this program and on this particular project· Now you're saying all of these others regardless of what they say if Mr. Kulash says, "No, I don't think that they are qualified to do that," This is what I'm hearing you say

MAYOR: Well, maybe you're not heating very well. What I suspect is that Mr. Kulash is going to come to the same conclusion. I base that on his letter sent to Van saying "Given my commission and the time frame and information that I have, I can't do a credible job of evaluating what should be done on this road." It depends on 2 things. What this community projects for the land use in this area and Don Tussing and

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Vernon Ryle are the best we've got here to project what our land use in this area is going to be and they say what Mr. Evans has based his traffic counts on is accurate. It's the best we can do. Then he says, "I can look at", we do this all the time, the projected traffic counts and then he says in his letter, let's assume then that he's going to agree with Mr. Evans, he' s not going to challenge that, that he can't give an opinion on this road, 20,000' s the upper limit. You cant get away with a 2 lane road with a traffic count in excess of 20,000 and in many instances you can't get away with a 2 lane road with a traffic count down around 12,000. Well, you know, I kind of think at best, we're average where land use control is concerned and so I'll split the difference, based upon what Walter said, and I have a lot of respect for him as I do for Mr. Moreland and the other experts around here, between 12,000 and 20,000 say at 16,000 at 16,000 we get capped at best on the ability on a 2 lane road given our land use patterns and our ability to control land use. These traffic counts are way in excess of 16,0000. So it seems to me, based on everything I've heard, the 4 lane suggestion for these 2 sections of Houston Road is appropriate and is consistent with what I know from Mr. Kulash thus far. Let me finish Mr. Chairman, this is the last point. Mr. Kulash has offered to give us his opinion, and he can do it within a month

FOUNTAIN: For more money

MAYOR: That's right, for more money and a relatively insignificant amount of money given the amount of money that we're spending in this program and given the public interest. Now Mr. Moreland has his hand up and he in the past has been able to guide us through some of these problems so...

MORELAND: I hope you'll listen to me this time, because you're not going to like it

JUSTICE: Thank you, Yes sir?

MORELAND: Thank you for letting me (say) this. I have been Walter Kulash's advocate, I appreciate him. He does know Jim Evans and he would concur in my judgement. Walter told me back in November some of what he put in his January 5th letter after the Executive Committee said they would like him to review it. We went back into Van's office and got some plans out and went through them and he said to me then, "I don't believe this is the place where I can make a contribution." He essentially said that in his January 5th letter but provided a lot of other editorial information and as you read the January 5th letter I read it that it would go back to what you do in your land use, what you're vision is... This is a tough process. I wish there was something else to do, but I do not believe Walter acted properly by faxing to this

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committee on the day of the meeting a letter that injected public chaos and disorganization. I've been out and spent a lot of time on Houston Road (coughing in background) and certainly if you elect to do it, we would cooperate with Walter and give him all the information but this project I believe.., is as far removed from the construction as we can get it. All the Right of Way is acquired except 2 parcels which probably will be acquired through condemnation. The project has been approved by State D.O.T., by the Federal Highway Administration. I read in the paper that CAUTION met with state and federal officials. I did not see any communication from them questioning the project or changing their posture (.9) and I know it's difficult. I've never been an elected official, but I've had to decide on a lot of projects where folks think it's a terrible mistake. I really believe that this project, you will find that it is not going to do all the bad things that you think it is, and again we'll cooperate, but it' s my recommendation that you not delay the project further by commissioning Walter to do this study. I think it may lessen his value on the other projects. I'll finish in just a minute.

JUSTICE: All right.

MORELAND: We've evolved a pretty good process here. Walter is a good engineer but he's certainly a great communicator and he can listen to the residents, he can get their trust and then we're having him, more or less, negotiate for them with the Technical Committee and we've reached some balance that does, I think, recognize the roadside impact, safety, and expeditious movement of traffic. I think to throw Walter into the middle of this project doesn't do anything constructive. I think what he would conclude is that if you analyze it like you have there., but I think he will opt for "Let' s go back and change all that", and maybe that' s desirable, but we've spent a lot of this money to get this project ready to go. It's my recommendation to the committee that you act on the information...

HILL: Mr. Chairman?

JUSTICE: Yes sir?

HII.L: Maybe I got lost somewhere along the line here, but I was thinking that based on maybe the article that I read from Mr. Kulash that he was disaligning himself with this and it seems like he has not wanted to be involved in this project. That's what I interpreted it to be, then we should go along with the original plan in this particular project, and if I'm in order, I'd like to make a motion that we proceed with, reaffirm our original

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JUSTICE: Commitment to this project?

HILL: Yes.

JUSTICE: Yes, sir? You're out of order please. There's a motion pending. All fight I have a motion.

HART: I second the motion. I agree with the Mayor's analysis...

MAYOR: Can I ask Tom a question, Mr. Chairman?

JUSTICE: Yes sir? Under discussion now.

MAYOR: Yes. This is discussion. Mr. Moreland, right at the very end of your remarks you said that if Walter did come in you anticipated, as I do, given his letter I really do, anticipate that he would agree that we've got to do this, but that he might change this or that, go back and what did you have in mind when you said he might change this or that?

MORELAND: What he discussed with me is that we need to make this a, and I'm lost for words, I'm not as good a communicator, but what Mayor I got from it is yes, given the conditions as you've described them.., can't we go back and change all this. Can we make this a model? Can we not have the growth and long range considerations that address themselves to you folks, but this project's ready to go...

JUSTICE: And we've heard that before Tom on other projects too when we got up to the threshold.
(Both speaking at once)

MORELAND: (As) difficult as it is, it's going to work on Ingleside, it's going to work on Wesleyan, it's worked on this intersection. It's going to work on these others. This project was just too far gone. I don't believe we would have come with anything different, we might have had a median on some of it... but I think Walter will have to back up in the land use controls, back up in the attitude. He can't change the facts. He' s going to be caught in between if he says go ahead with it... mainly I'm worded about sending signals that we're indecisive on this project and we'll lose our funding.

JUSTICE: Exactly.

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MORELAND: If I thought it were the wrong project, I wouldn't say that.

JUSTICE: And don't think that that we aren't very much aware of some of the motivation about the delays and possibly losing these funds.

MAYOR: Mr. Chairman, If I could?

JUSTICE: Yes.

MAYOR: Mr. Moreland I don't think you have to worry too much about your ability to communicate, though I can see that Walter's pretty good at it too, you're not far behind if you are at all.

MORELAND: He can win elected office too.

MAYOR: Yeah, I don't think I'm too worded about that, so basically, it's your sense that in order for Walter to arrive at a different conclusion than that arrived at by all the other experts, he's going to have to ask us to change the way we develop. A lot of people think that means stop growth, he' d probably say, "No, that' s not what we're talking about, we're talking about smart growth" and I know Georgia, Atlanta is experiencing this problem now and we will if we don't get smarter in the way we're growing, we're really going to choke on our success.

JUSTICE: Mr. Mayor?

MAYOR: Mr. Chairman, if I could finish? The likihood though, in my opinion, that we' re going change our approach to developing this area in any time in the near future is very small, and so with that in mind, I think what Don and Vernon predict is what will occur even if they, as planners, would prefer that it not occur, it's going to occur, and with that in mind I'll support the motion.

HART: And with that we should call for the question (?) (motion?)

JUSTICE: Well, ok we have a call for the, well all right, we'll bow to let you speak. Ma'am?

MEGGS: I'd like to point out to Mr. Hill that the County resolution passed in August of 1994 asked for a two lane rural Houston Road, and that is what the people voted for. That was the original proposal for Houston Road, so if I had allowed Mr. Hill to make

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his motion as stated, that's what you would have, in fact, passed today. The other thing that I would like to say is, according to the figures that Mr. Evans provided us today an 8 lane Houston Road is not large enough. If that kind of growth is going to occur in south Bibb County then you'd better get ready for it and one road will not do it. Houston Road will not fix the traffic problems. This gentleman was asked to do projections to 2025. Has every single road in the Road Improvement Program have projected growth to 2025?

JUSTICE: Yes, that's correct.

MEGGS: Ok, so this is the largest part of our County, that was the determination.

JUSTICE: No

MEGGS: Bigger than north Macon, bigger than Riverside, bigger than Northside.

JUSTICE (and others): No.

MEGGS: Ok, let's assume that the growth that this gentleman predicted is going to happen. When this was looked at, and he went to a lot of trouble and he is good, I did check his credentials, he is one of the best, ya'll told me to check him out and I did, he's phenomenal. His firm has a great record, but when he looked at the alternatives he didn't look at all the alternatives presented by the community. They looked at moving the Sardis Church Road Connector south without looking at taking Hartley Bridge to 247. One part is key to the other part. Why was that ignored? How could you possibly expect it to make sense, when half the alternative plan was left out?

JUSTICE: Thank you.

MEGGS: I'm not quite finished sir.

JUSTICE: Ok.

MEGGS: I haven't even used 2 minutes yet. I think you allowed 5. The other thing is, in this area of the County there is a huge flooding problem. I don't know if that's a consideration on every road or not, but there's a huge flooding problem out here. Nothing has been done to resolve it. There has been $50,000 spent for a study to look at the runoff (?) from a 5 lane Houston Road. To my knowledge today, the study on paper, with no construction date, and no inception date, and no final approval has not

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protected a soul from flooding. I'd like to know how that piece of paper is going to protect the property owners that are currently in danger and will be further in danger after a 5 lane road is conducted. I would like to know why a detention pond, at a cost of $3,000,000 had to be expanded already, and redesigned already with the amount of construction that has occurred in this area. The growth is coming, it's for sure... If you allow that kind of growth, you'd better get ready for traffic, flooding, high density residential, commercial corridors, and Mr. Fountain, at a meeting with us told me plainly and specifically that Sardis Church Road would be commercial or industrial. Mr. Ryle, you were there, and yet you sit here and say there's going to be no change in the land use plan from the 2015 plan? You were in the room. Commercial and industrial. If it's not going to be residential, then take the residents out, or please try to protect them, and I' m sorry there' s another point of contention I have, and I have 45 seconds left, (this) being looked at from both a federal and a state level and I do have documentation of that that I'm more than happy to provide.

JUSTICE: Oh, they're already aware of that. Yes, sir?

RYAN: Mr. Chairman, for the record the County Commission and the city passed a relevant resolution that preceded the Sales Tax in 1994. The experts who examined this project then and are in this room now, Mr. Moreland's firm, Mr. Ryle, Mr. Tussing, they were a member of the evaluation process at the time the list was compiled and at that time public presentations to the public and the Moreland Altobelli report which was incorporated into the resolution authorizing the Sales Tax you called for a widening of a 24 foot rural section on Houston Road. Now you have the same who've examined all this so, where is any significant change (to) justify going from 2 lanes to 4, 5 lanes.

JUSTICE: Any of ya'll want to handle that? I can make one point for you. If you look at this, we didn't think that Hartley Bridge was going to need to be 4 lanes or Sardis Church, but it shows it now that it does and I think growth is gong to dictate a lot of that

RYAN(?): That's that very same report, sir.

JUSTICE: Listen, we don't have a crystal ball. We do the very best we can and then we try to listen to our engineers. I don't profess to be a civil engineer and traffic engineer and I don't think ya'll are either. Yes sir?

UNKNOWN MALE: I would like to address one point of safety that Mr. Marshall

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mentioned that we have a hill (?) zone on Riverside Drive. We also are developing one, we already have one presently on the south end of Houston from Sardis Church to the intersection across the bridge over to the intersection at 49. I realize (from) the County that that's a very dangerous intersection, no traffic signal there, but last year there has already been one fatality on this side between Sardis Church and the bridge. If we build, and it looks like you're going to no matter what we say, 4 lanes at the intersection of Walden and Sardis Church... and dump that traffic onto south Houston Road, you are doubling the kill zone, and so I think the Commissioners should be held responsible for that.

JUSTICE: That's a good point. I asked that question because of that curve right there as you get past there, and basically they said as you get past there that, Bob help me out on this, that curb right past Sardis Church on Houston Road South... (will be taken out) so it will, in fact make it safer.
(TAPE RAN OUT)

FOUNTAIN: ... The water problem we are addressing. We've hired the firm of Tribble & Richardson to look at it. They have brought us some retention ponds in that area which we are looking at to acquire. We are addressing that issue and we will spend a lot of money addressing that issue of additional runoff on Houston Road.

MAYOR: Mr. Evans, how does your opinion concerning these numbers change, if at all, assuming that Hartley Bridge Road is extended to 247?

EVANS: It probably, I can guarantee you won't reduce the #s on Houston Road.

MAYOR: On the subject of detention ponds and the expense the we're going to incur, all of us.., to study that question, and then to solve the drainage problem that' s caused by growth, not necessarily smart growth in this area, it seems to me that that cost should be captured by the developers who are improving these properties. Not by all of us, and I don't know that we have impact fees at present in Bibb County, but if we don't that subject is going to have to be considered with regard to this kind of growth and it's kind of silly for all of us to be paying for millions and millions of dollars for retention ponds.

FOUNTAIN: Mr. Mayor, the County has an ordinance requiting retention. The City is looking at once, but ya'll don't have one...

MAYOR: And is that on individual parcels?

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FOUNTAIN: Any major development in this community, including schools.

MAYOR:	I think we need to, at the very least the cost of all of this needs to be
Intemalized and not borne by all the rest of us.

MEGGS: What about my cost? I'm the one that floods.

JUSTICE: Ma'am, we've given you a chance to speak. We've called for the question and basically, again do you want to restate your motion, because they're trying to interpret your motion. Is your motion to pretty much go with the 4 lane.., with a flush median?

(Many in audience stating that was not the original plan.)

JUSTICE: Let's let him state instead of us trying to state it for him.

HIIJL: My motion is to go with the plan that we originally approved, and that was a 4 lane with a flush median.

JUSTICE: They're saying the original plan that's in the book is not. What we voted on as a committee was a 4 lane with a flush median and that' s what he' s talking about.

HART: Ok. Second.

JUSTICE: Now let's make sure that we don't get this thing again, because every time we mm around somebody' s challenging the minutes of the meeting. Now again, you're saying the last vote that this Executive Committee took was a 4 lane with a flush median. That' s your motion, and we've got a second on it. A1 in favor say aye?

ALL MEMBERS: Aye.

JUSTICE: Opposed? Let the record show it was unanimous, and my goodness let's move on.

HILL: Mr. Chairman?

JUSTICE: Yes.

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HILL: Ladies and gentleman, for what I'm about to say you're not going to agree with, but I'm going to say it anyway, so you know where I stand. Coming to a meeting of this nature, and getting the criticism and the drawbacks and the tension that is put on me as an individual and especially in my condition, I can't see when you call for the referendum and you voted for it and you hired an engineering company like Moreland Altobelli, then you come and you want to change things according to what they were doing in Atlanta, this CAUTION group. I cannot understand, and as far as Mr. Kulash is concerned, I have problems with him. When we passed the referendum we hired an engineering firm, Moreland Altobelli, to handle this project for us and they we are shot down in everything we try to do, and I just don't understand it I look at the criticism that has come up. I get reports from Houston Road and some others, people who live out there that want us to do what we are doing out there.

JUSTICE: There are an awfully lot here today.

HILL: Not only that but most of the people who are criticizing this road project, you don't live anywhere near Jeff Davis or Forest Avenue. I read the CAUTION history of Atlanta and you all have some people down here from the CAUTION group to organize you to fight this particular project.

UNKNOWN MALE: Nonsense.

UNKNOWN MALE: Bulls**t.

JUSTICE: Let's watch our mouth back there please.

HILL: I cannot understand what you're doing. Why you're fighting when we're trying to do something productive for this community.

MAYOR: I'll have to go on record disagreeing with Mr. President. I think you all are doing exactly what you have a right to do, what you ought to do. Reasonable people differ on these kinds of things. We set up a process that contemplated exactly this kind of input. Not going to be happy with the decisions that each of us make but you're doing the right thing, you ought to keep it up.

JUSTICE: Let me move on please.

7.    Old or New Business 	Chairman Larry Justice

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JUSTICE: Under Old or New Business, there's another item that I was called and asked to consider dealing with the intersection of Bloomfield Road and Bloomfield Drive. Ya'll I think maybe had some business that had wanted to come out there. Would you all, being that we've had a request that we look at that intersection, which is absolutely bad out these, look at he feasibility of isolating the development verses the other and see if there's any way that one could be independent of the other one as to trying to come up with a solution to the overall problem, and I don't know exactly what I'm saying other than try to find a solution to it really.

MAYOR: Mr. Chairman if I could?

JUSTICE: Yes.

MAYOR: I didn't think to share this memo with you.., concerning that problem. I recently vetoed a Council resolution and Council chose to back my veto... We've got a developer, and this is not the first time, interested in developing the acreage along Eisenhower Parkway at Log Cabin Drive, another mall. Bloomfield Village has suffered as a result of limited access, this is something Van and I have talked about. My opinion is, Mr. Chairman, that we need to re 'think our view of the stretch of Eisenhower Parkway between 1-475 and 75. That that stretch, our decisions concerning curb cuts and access to larger commercial developments needs to be rethought. We recently permitted K-Mart to develop there and Mr. Shackleford was kind enough to permit access directly into K-Mart. I think we need to rethink our view of that road altogether and encourage D.O.T. to do so as well so that road permits easy access and egress to these major developments. I think it would be good for us and good for our tax base. That road needs to be the premier shopping area for middle and south Georgia and we need to encourage it as much as possible... The long term Bloomfield Village solution is direct access to Eisenhower Parkway. The long term solution for a mall at Log Cabin and Eisenhower Parkway I suspect is direct access as well.

HILL: (Too faint to hear)

MAYOR: A frontage road is another alternative that certainly should be considered, but something like that would really help the tax base of our community out tremendously.

JUSTICE: I can only say one thing because I didn't know all of the details. I'm glad you brought it up, but I know that intersection there going into Parkway is an absolute

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nightmare.

MAYOR: You're right.

JUSTICE: So if the Technical Committee would take that under advisement, look at it and bring something back to us. Try to maybe help the City in this situation.
Next meeting dates are listed down here...

SCHOLL: I would like to thank you and the committee. For all our differences, you have been very generous in allowing public input and I think we've had better meetings for it and I want to encourage you to continue it and congratulate you for allowing it.

JUSTICE: Thank you

DUNWODY: I think it's important to the community the Road Program. I think opening this up, although it has stretched all ya'lls patience I know. Even when you take a decision that's strongly opposed, they will probably accept it because they had their say and they don't feel that anything's been covered up. That was our earlier perception, that things had been done behind the scenes.

JUSTICE: Elliott, thank you for that and I want to tell all of you something if I may. Other than these two gentleman down here, the two of us have been around a long time in this community and I don't know of any time that anybody has ever actually point blank called me a liar. I have never intentionally lied to anybody. I have tried to keep this wide open, everything above board. There's nobody trying to hide anything from anybody, and again like I mentioned to you a while ago, I'm not an engineer. I'm not a planner. We have to rely on the best people that we can find to try to give us recommendations and then take all of that information and make some kind of decision with it. Over the last 10 years census, do ya'll remember what we did, the City of Macon did? The City of Macon lost something like 6,000 population. The County stood pretty much stagnant at just about zero increase. I've never heard so many people accuse Mr. Elliott Dunwoody and Gene and all the rest, myself included, have a wailing and gnashing of teeth and crying and carrying on. Here's all these other communities growing and prospering, and Macon and Bibb County staying stagnant, so here we are beginning to get some development. Mr. Mayor you were involved in bringing another 150 people into Macon. They're going to have to have homes to live (in). That's going to be more growth, more traffic on the highways. We've got to provide for that traffic. You know that we have increased our population since the last census, I think it's quite obvious if you go around and look. All I'm saying is it's hard

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for us to wrestle with these problems, but we're trying to do the very best we can, and ya'll please bear with us, and with that, We're adjourned.

8. Next Meeting Dates 	Chairman Larry Justice

Oversight Committee             		January 14, 1999 			2:00 P.M	
Technical Advisory Committee 		January 14, 1999 			10:00 A.M.
Executive Committee              		February 11, 1999			9:30 A.M.