TECHNICAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE 
MACON-BIBB COUNTY SALES TAX ROAD PROGRAM 
APRIL 4, 2002 
4:07 P.M.
COMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT:
BOB FOUNTAIN 
BILL CAUSEY 
TOM QUEEN 
KAREN McDUFFIE 
VERNON RYLE 
BILL WIKLE
OTHERS PRESENT:
SUSAN HANBERRY 
LINDSAY HOLLIDAY 
ANTHONY D. LEWIS 
TOMMY OLMSTEAD 
CAM OETTER 
ALICE PATTERSON 
JOE PATTERSON, JR. 
CINDY ROUGHEN 
TERRIE SALTER 
SHERRIE SAWYER 
TOM SCHOLL 
KEN SHEETS 
DEXTER C. WHITE

REPORTED BY: PATRICIA C. USSERY, CCR B-1238

CLAUDE JOINER REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 
410 AMERICAN FEDERAL BUILDING 
P. O. BOX 94 
MACON, GEORGIA 31202-0094 
TELEPHONE: 478/742-6611 or 746-7804

MR. FOUNTAIN: We're running about five minutes late. If we could, we'll go ahead and call our April meeting to order. We have our March 7th minutes before us. I hope everybody has had a chance to look at them. Are there any corrections, additions or deletions to our minutes?
MR. QUEEN: I think there may have been one. Bill Roundtree was representing Glenn Durrence.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Who was now?
MR. QUEEN: Bill Roundtree was representing Glenn Durrence?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Pat, did you pick that up.
COURT REPORTER: Yes, I did. Thank you.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Okay. With that change, could I have a motion for approval?
MR. QUEEN: So moved.
MR. FOUNTAIN: I have a motion. Do I have a second?
MR. CAUSEY: Second.
MR. FOUNTAIN: All in favor, say, "aye".
UNISON: "Aye".
MR. FOUNTAIN: Any opposed? (No response). So carried. All right, moving right along. Under Item 3 we have our community comments. There will be another opportunity on the agenda at Item 9 for comments. Would anyone like to address our committee at this time? (No response). We'll move right along to Item 4, which is Ingleside Avenue construction bids. Van Etheridge.
MR. ETHERIDGE: Under Tab Number 4 is a bid recap of the four bids that were received by Bibb County on March the 19th. Shepherd, Northeast, Reeves and APAC bid the project. The low bid was Shepherd Construction. 
This is the section of Ingleside from Pierce to Riverside. Shepherd was the low bid at $822,083.67. It was 1/10th percent above the engineer's estimate. They met the MBE goal of 20 percent, and it was within the budget that we have in the program for the project. And we would request you all approve this bid of Shepherd for Ingleside to Pierce.
MR. FOUNTAIN: You've heard the recommendation of our Program Manager. Do I have a motion for approval?
MR. RYLE: So moved.
MR. FOUNTAIN: We have a motion. Second?
MR. WIKLE: Second.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Discussion? Van, when are we looking to proceed on that project?
MR. ETHERIDGE: Next Tuesday Bibb County will finalize the bids.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Okay.
MR. ETHERIDGE: And probably ten days after that --
MR. FOUNTAIN: Okay.
MR. ETHERIDGE: And the completion date is the end of this year. So it's a pretty short fuse on that.
MR. FOUNTAIN: All right. All in favor, say, "aye".
UNISON: "Aye".
MR. FOUNTAIN: Opposed? (No response). So carried. All right. Item 5, Van, request to let to contract.
MR. ETHERIDGE: Mr. Chairman, we have two projects that we would like to get let in probably May, the middle part of May, the latter part of May. The first is the repair of the concrete and brick sidewalks in the Historic District. There are 14 streets, and we might just run through them a minute in case some of you don't know. Georgia Avenue in front of the Hay House, and also down a little farther on Mulberry in front of the Cannonball House. High Street in front of the Sidney Lanier Cottage. And over in Hughley (phonetically) Heights, Rembrandt Avenue, Linden Avenue, Lawton Avenue, Johnson Avenue, Adams Street, Chestnut Street and Oglethorpe Street. Also on College Street, Appleton Avenue, Progress Street at St. Paul Street, and Tattnall Street. As I said, we should be able to let probably about the middle, maybe the end of May. And we would request that we be allowed to do that.
MR. FOUNTAIN: You've heard the recommendation of our Program Manager to let the Phase I of our sidewalk repairs. Do we have a motion?
MR. CAUSEY: So moved.
MR. WIKLE: Second.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Second. Discussion? Now, Van, we're going to be able to pick the color under this, is that right? I mean we're going to have them to match those brick?
MR. ETHERIDGE: The concrete sidewalks will have a color added to the concrete. They'll be kind of a beige concrete. They won't be the white. We also are relaying some bricks, which we'll be using old brick. There is a section or two that we will color probably with a reddish tint to match some existing brick so they'll be concrete sections approaching those brick sections.
MR. FOUNTAIN: So we want to try to match them as much as we can.
MR. ETHERIDGE: We're more or less replacing them in kind where we can.
MR. FOUNTAIN: All in favor say, "aye".
UNISON: "Aye".
MR. FOUNTAIN: Opposed? (No response). So carried. Item 5B. Van. 
MR. ETHERIDGE: Mr. Chairman, the second project we'd like to let is the intersection street name sign project. This sign project provides for street names at over 2,000 intersections in Macon and Bibb County. There's 1452 intersections on arterial routes and 567 intersections on collector systems, so there's 2,219 total. And, again, we'd like to let it probably the latter part of May. The contract time will be 12 months from the notice to proceed. And we would request that we be allowed to do that.
MR. RYLE: So moved.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Bill, is this adding the larger signs?
MR. WIKLE: That's right. They'll be ten inch by an average of three and a half to four feet.
MR. RYLE: We really need them.
MR. WIKLE: The letter sizes will be 50 percent larger and the signs will be much wider and much more reflective.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Will these be overhead mounts on major arteries?
MR. WIKLE: No.
MR. FOUNTAIN: They're not overhead mounts?
MR. WIKLE: No. All signalized intersections will have overhead mounts.
MR. FOUNTAIN: All right.
MR. WIKLE: Stop sign control intersections will have ground mounted signs.
MR. FOUNTAIN: And, so, these will be new standards, also, then, won't they?
MR. WIKLE: These signs will be more than twice as large as the signs that we are now using. And visibility will increase by the same amount. 
MR. FOUNTAIN: Great.
MR. WIKLE: And, again, we have an installation at Third and Riverside which you can look at that will show you. It makes a good looking installation.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Third and Riverside?
MR. WIKLE: Yes.
MR. FOUNTAIN: All right. I'll look at that. You've heard the recommendation.
MR. RYLE: I've already made the motion.
MR. FOUNTAIN: We have a motion. Do we have a second?
MR. CAUSEY: Second.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Second. All in favor say, "aye".
UNISON: "Aye".
MR. FOUNTAIN: Opposed? (No response). So carried. It's kind of like an auction around here trying to get a second. Okay. Moving right along. Item 6, Steve Duval.
MR. DUVAL: Good afternoon everyone. I'd just like to make an announcement about our next public meeting. It will be concerning Project Number 3, South Downtown Connector. That's from Little Richard Penniman Boulevard to Martin Luther King. That meeting is going to be held April 18th at the Greater New Bethel Baptist Church at 726 Edgewood Avenue. And if you would make a note that instead of our regular normal start time of 5 O'clock, we've moved that time back to 6 O'clock. So we'll be starting that meeting at 6 O'clock. It lasts from 6:00 to approximately 8 O'clock that evening. And we'll have our regular announcements and our signs up. We're also going to have this announcement on the local access --
MR. FOUNTAIN: Channel.
MR. DUVAL: -- channel.
MR. FOUNTAIN: What church is that again, Steve?
MR. DUVAL: Greater New Bethel Baptist Church. It's on Edgewood Avenue right off of Telfair Street.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Okay.
MR. DUVAL: There's plenty of parking there. It should be a good meeting.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Van and I had occasion to meet with Chester Wheeler of Community Development, and Chester is going to, their department is going to be a co-sponsor of this event, this meeting. As you know, we had, there were two studies done on this project that are completed. There was a study prepared by EDAW that did their slant on this project, and then after the EDAW study there was a charette that was sponsored by Mercer University. They brought in some professionals and then they gave their slant to this project. And we've really got some pretty good reviews and some real encouragement to go ahead and build this project. And Mr. Wheeler also has, everyone seems to like the project as presented. So this will be a chance to bring this, and this will be, and this is our final public meeting on this project before we go to press with the design on it. So if you all can, please come. And, Steve, you'll send those out to our elected officials and make sure that it gets on their calendar?
MR. DUVAL: Oh, sure. We'll make sure everybody is notified.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Thank you, Steve.
MR. DUVAL: Also, as a follow-up to that, Bob, I just wanted to report that, you know, we didn't have any media coverage on that last meeting that we had on Poplar Street, but Chris did come in and do a real nice story. If you didn't see it, it came out this week in the newspaper.
MR. FOUNTAIN: But it had a negative slant to it.
MR. DUVAL: Well, I didn't see that.
MR. FOUNTAIN: It was like we hadn't taken care of the buses or something. The whole thing was --
MR. RYLE: Well, that's been addressed.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Well, I knew it had.
MR. DUVAL: Yeah.
MR. RYLE: In fact, the Transit Authority is working now, they're going to be meeting with the City, and moving the transfer station. They're already aware of that. They've been made aware of that and they're working on that. It's not a forgotten thing.

MR. FOUNTAIN: And don't forget our people, our program managers, too, to try to work with --
MR. RYLE: I did that at his request.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Okay. Let's make sure that we make it happen and it doesn't get lost in the translation somewhere. 
MR. DUVAL: But I thought the picture was --
MR. FOUNTAIN: The picture was great, yeah.
MR. DUVAL: And, hopefully, everything is going to be okay with it. That's all I've got. Thank you very much.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Thank you, Steve.
MR. ETHERIDGE: One other thing, Bob, about that project. We would like to try to get Mr. Joe Passano, if he can come, to be there --
MR. FOUNTAIN: Yes.
MR. ETHERIDGE: -- for that meeting.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Yes.
MR. RYLE: On the 18th?
MR. ETHERIDGE: Yes.
MR. RYLE: Yeah.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Let him be a part of it because we're using his basic concept.
MR. OLMSTEAD: Bob.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Yes, sir.
MR. OLMSTEAD: What's the situation with the railroad, do you know? I heard that they were thinking of an overpass now at Telfair which would absolutely change all the plans for that road.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Van and our program people met with Georgia DOT, and what they were looking at was how many trips a day there were across that. With the completion of this project on down to MLK, they feel that the majority of the traffic won't be turning left anymore.
MR. OLMSTEAD: That's right.
MR. FOUNTAIN: They'll be going --
MR. OLMSTEAD: They'll be going straight. 
MR. FOUNTAIN: -- straight down and feeding onto the other arterial.
MR. OLMSTEAD: So they've made that decision?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Yes, sir. And they're saying that if that's the case, then there wouldn't be a need for the overhead. The overhead would come if we didn't do anything.
MR. OLMSTEAD: I think they're right.
MR. FOUNTAIN: So I think we've kind of got that issue resolved so that we can move forward with that project. Let's see. Joe, you're going to give us an update on our design and environmental issues with our projects.
MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. I'm going to quickly go over some of our major projects in the program, and if there's any questions during my presentation, please stop me and I'll do what I can to answer them.
Our first major project, as Steve just mentioned, is our South Downtown Connector project. Where we are in design is, of course, Mr. Passano did change the alignment of that project slightly, so after the results of the public meeting are analyzed I'll revise the concept that's already been approved by the Department of Transportation and resubmit a new concept to them. And that should be a good bit quicker than a regular concept approval. I don't see any problem with that, and then we can go ahead and get our consultant back to work with the design of that project.
The next project is Forsyth/Cotton and that corridor, the plans have been completed by our consultant and we are working with the manufacturer of our street lights to come up with a lighting plan that will actually cover that corridor. So as soon as we can get those from them we will be able to let that project. And we foresee that happening in the next week or so, being able to have those plans, and then be able to let that shortly.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Please. I have Mr. Albert Billingslea ask me about that project every time I see him.
MR. JOHNSON: Okay. Our next set of projects are our Jeffersonville Road/Millerfield Road corridor. That's 6, 7 and 54A in our program. That project right now is under environmental review. The draft environmental document is at the State right now undergoing their review. We hope to have draft approval by the end of the summer so that we can go to a public hearing and move forward with that project.
Our next projects are 8 and 9, which is our Forest Hill Road project. We do have draft environmental approval on that and we have had a public hearing. We are waiting for our stakeholders meeting with the County and us and the State and we've been working on coordinating it. I've heard that they're going to try to have a meeting sometime at the end of April or early in May. And they're just finalizing some of the details on that. The State is hiring JJ&G, Jordan, Jones & Goulding, to facilitate that meeting and also to do a syncro-traffic model to show everybody how the traffic would flow through there.
Our projects 10 and 11, which are the Northwest Parkway and the section of Log Cabin Drive north of Mercer, that's also in environmental review. That document has been turned in to the State and it does have some historic problems because of the portion of the project on Park Street. And we're expecting a draft approval on that sometime during the summer and then we can go to public hearing on that also.
MR. FOUNTAIN: If that's the case, when could we start right-of-way acquisition on that first part?
MR. JOHNSON: Assuming that that does go reasonably well and we do get a FONZI (phonetically) signed by the Federal Highway Administration, we'd have our field planning review and probably by the end of this year we could go to right-of-way acquisition, November or December.
Our next project is Log Cabin Drive. That's the section between Eisenhower Parkway and Mercer University Drive. Final plans are due from our consultant the first of May. We'll have our final field plan review and should be able to let that by September.
The next project is Bloomfield Road from Rocky Creek back north to Eisenhower Parkway. We just recently completed right-of-way plans, and they're at the Department right now awaiting their approval. 
Let's see what else we have here. Tucker Road, we've been working with Nimrod Long from Birmingham, Alabama, in developing our pedestrian facility on that site. We just had a meeting yesterday to finalize the details of that, so that's going ahead just fine.
Houston Avenue, our final plans on that project are due the beginning of May on Phase 1, which will be from State Route 247 back north to Newberg Avenue.
MR. FOUNTAIN: You're looking to let that to contract when?
MR. JOHNSON: I would say about July or August. That's a fairly long project.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Yes.
MR. JOHNSON: And I believe the plans are --
MR. FOUNTAIN: We're going to Newberg, is that right, Joe?
MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Newberg back to Seven Bridges?
MR. JOHNSON: Seven Bridges, that's correct. That project is going reasonably well, and it should be under construction shortly.
Sardis Church Road Connector, that's our connecting road from the State's proposed interchange at I-75 over to 247. Our designers are working full speed ahead and will have the plans by the middle of May. That project is held up in the Environmental Department. The State has hired a sub-consultant to do the environmental document for that project. And from what I hear there's some contract problems with their consultant, and that project really hasn't moved in the past several months. We've been promised a public hearing on that for almost over a year now, so we're waiting. We're really waiting on the State on that one.
MR. FOUNTAIN: We've got the letter that you all have prepared for the Chairman's signature --
MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir.
MR. FOUNTAIN: -- to Georgia DOT requesting that they proceed.
MR. JOHNSON: Let's see. Our next little project we're working on is our Second at Mulberry Street which Claxton Architects is working on. The final plans on that project are due May the 20th. We should just have a quick field plan review and be able to get that project back pretty shortly.
MR. FOUNTAIN: What's the time of construction? This is the Grand Opera House, part of it?
MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir.
MR. FOUNTAIN: And in front of the Courthouse?
MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir. I imagine if we have our plans by May, we can have our field plan review and everything the beginning of June. Probably about the first of July.
MR. FOUNTAIN: You'd be able to start?
MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Okay.
MR. JOHNSON: If there's any questions on any of the other projects?
MR. CAUSEY: The Forsyth and Cotton, if you get the street light issue worked out, what is the likely start date to it?
MR. JOHNSON: Let's see. I think May to June. The plans are completed. And the lighting plans, it's just the process of incorporating the quantities into the plans, and we'll be ready to let it to contract just as soon as we get those lighting plans.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Now, the Fall Line Freeway, Joe, I understand it's in the same category with Sardis Church?
MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir.
MR. OLMSTEAD: The Eisenhower Extension.
MR. FOUNTAIN: I meant the Eisenhower Extension. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir. I've seen the comments, and I'm sure everybody else has, and that's the phase they're in is to try to answer the comments back to the different Federal agencies.
MR. FOUNTAIN: But they don't have anybody under contract either yet, do they?
MR. JOHNSON: That's what I've heard, yes, sir.
MR. FOUNTAIN: So, hopefully, we're going to put both projects in our correspondence so that we can certainly encourage them to get somebody on board so we can proceed with these projects. Are there any other projects that anybody's got any questions about?
Bill, how about with our traffic calming, where are we at with that? I noticed we're paying him some money.
MR. WIKLE: We're close to getting the documents. I've got a meeting scheduled with Bill Vaughn and John Furney (phonetically) Friday to discuss the financial proposal.
MR. FOUNTAIN: To discuss what now?
MR. WIKLE: The financial, the funding proposals on that facility so that we can come forward with workable funding mechanisms.
MR. FOUNTAIN: You mean for the people to buy into?
MR. WIKLE: For however we finance the improvements.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Okay. When will we be able to have this to the people as to what we're proposing?
MR. WIKLE: By the end of this month.
MR. FOUNTAIN: The end of this month, okay. And what will Furney do, have another public --
MR. WIKLE: Make a presentation to --
MR. FOUNTAIN: Make another presentation to Council and the Commission? 
MR. WIKLE: Both governments and --
MR. FOUNTAIN: Both governments --
MR. WIKLE: -- a public meeting.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Kind of where we're at and we've been and where we're going?
MR. WIKLE: Yes.
MR. FOUNTAIN: All right. We've had a lot of people, Commissioner Clay continues to ask me about where we're at with that, and Commissioner Bishop has also inquired about it. I think we're getting calls from the citizens wanting to know when they can participate in this process. That's good. Is there any other questions of Joe before we move on about any other projects?
Joe, tell me, on Wesleyan Drive, we are proceeding on Wesleyan on our intersection projects?
MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir, we're proceeding. Melvin Ewing is our designer on that project and we should have a set of plans from him sometime mid-May. It's going to go to our final field plan review and we'll start work on that project.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Bill.
MR. WIKLE: Let me also mention on our signal timing project that we've had delivery of the timing program for downtown from our consultant and we're in the process of loading that on the computer and beginning field tests and fine tuning.
MR. FOUNTAIN: How many intersections does that cover, Bill?
MR. WIKLE: All of downtown, except Broadway.
MR. FOUNTAIN: How many? Sixty?
MR. WIKLE: Forty.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Forty intersections that you'll be able to time from our new facility by computer?
MR. WIKLE: Right. And we will have MLK also, and that will push it into the 50 to 59 number.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Bill, we've got a phase two and three of this. The In-Town is phase one. We have phase two and three. Bill, do you want to bring us up to speed on where we're at on phase two and three of the signal system in Macon and Bibb County?
MR. WIKLE: Well, as you know, we got news today that the make ready costs are close to a half million dollars that we were surprised with, but now the DOT has agreed to pick up that cost. That was thanks to some good work.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Thanks to our people at Moreland Altobelli and everybody involved with it. That was a day's work.
MR. WIKLE: Yes.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Now, this project, Bill, has already been let to contract, the bids have been opened?
MR. WIKLE: Yes. It was awarded. They simply have not issued the --
MR. FOUNTAIN: Notice to proceed.
MR. WIKLE: -- notice to proceed. They were holding that pending the utility adjustments on make ready costs.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Okay. So will you follow back up with Studstill now, is that where we're at with this?
MR. WIKLE: I'll work through Utilities in Thomaston to make sure that this is cleared up and with Van.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Whatever we've got to do there. This is a --
MR. WIKLE: It should go through, it should fall back into a normal process.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Good. Do we remember how much this was, Bill, this contract?
MR. WIKLE: There are two, and they are, they total between four and a half and five million.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Is Vineville a part of this, Bill?
MR. WIKLE: The Vineville reversible lane system will be completely replaced.
MR. FOUNTAIN: It will be completely replaced as part of this project. All right. Let's see. Van, under Item 7, I'm sorry, Item 8, right-of-way acquisition. The heartbeat of the program.
MR. ETHERIDGE: Yes, sir. Bibb County is presently buying right-of-way on five projects. Those projects are Log Cabin Drive, the section from Eisenhower over to Mercer. There's 18 parcels acquired there out of the 24.
Also, the section of Bloomfield Road from Eisenhower back south to where Log Cabin and Bloomfield tie together there. There's 154 parcels on that section. We are obtaining appraisal contracts on that now to get started.
Another section out there is Mercer University Drive out west to I-475. There's 149 parcels out there to be bought, and the County has already bought, well, the State has already bought 83 of those.
On Houston Avenue, there's 157 parcels to be bought. 
MR. FOUNTAIN: How many, Van, on Houston?
MR. ETHERIDGE: 157. And there's been 47 purchased. About 30 percent complete there.
And then out on Millerfield Road, 84 parcels out there, and we've acquired 75 of those. So we're about 90 percent on Millerfield. And that's about all we're working on right now.
MR. FOUNTAIN: That's kind of the silent part of our program, but it's one of the most, it's the thing that makes it happen, getting that right-of-way, and getting out construction clearances signed to proceed with construction. Are there any questions or comments to Van before we move along? Item 9, community comments. Would anyone like to speak to our committee? Susan?
MS. HANBERRY: I'll start. Susan Hanberry. I have a couple of questions about sidewalks. Are you going to redo the marble sidewalks by the Hay House?
MR. ETHERIDGE: No.
MR. CAUSEY: No.
MS. HANBERRY: Are they going to be switched to brick?
MR. CAUSEY: That's not in this project.
MS. HANBERRY: It's not in the project. I'd just like to state my opinion about how some of the repairs were done on brick streets. When you just cut out parts that are damaged in a big square instead of pulling out the bricks, it looks funny. If you'd just have them pull out the bricks and put them back in, you'd have, it would be so much nicer, particularly on the sidewalks where pedestrians are paying attention. It's just a comment.
I just have a question, too, about the South Downtown Connector public meeting. I don't know if you were at the charette, Mr. Fountain, but I did hear some questions about the road and the need for it. I don't believe I heard that they liked the design as it was presented. I just didn't hear that at all. I just wanted to make that comment.
Mr. Johnson, your presentation, would you make those notes available to the CAC. I would appreciate it. Those were the notes that I was talking about, Vernon, instead of the good sense things. Those would be real helpful to us.
Do we know who the sub-consultant is on the Sardis Church Connector?
MR. JOHNSON: On the environmental document?
MS. HANBERRY: Yeah.
MR. JOHNSON: I believe it's --
MR. QUEEN: Is it Jordan, Jones --
MR. JOHNSON: That's who it was at one time. I believe they were having some contract problems.
MR. QUEEN: JJ&G. 
MS. HANBERRY: JJ&G, okay. That was my last question.
MR. QUEEN: And I believe the contract hold up on that is the Department is prevented from increasing the contract more than 20 percent, and this I believe has reached that point and they've got to issue a new contract.
MS. HANBERRY: Okay. Thank you.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Thank you, Susan. Is there anyone else who would like to --
DR. HOLLIDAY: Lindsay Holliday.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Yes, sir, Mr. Holliday.
DR. HOLLIDAY: I don't know if anybody -- I want to get into the minutes that a suggestion has been made to, that the reservations about Eisenhower Parkway Extension may be solved and emunerated (phonetically) by taking I-16 away from the river. If you had a map, I'd draw it, but that's basically you'd take it out of Ocmulgee National Monument. And as it comes, you go west into Macon before you go into the monument, it could curve into where you want Eisenhower Parkway to go so that would give you your Eisenhower Parkway extension, and I-16 would end at I-75 there instead of at Spring Street. And that's not my idea, but several people actually even around the country that have become aware of this problem have said that that looks obvious to them because of our environmental problems that were created by I-16. There and the monument. If you take away I-16, do away with the levy and you solve our flooding problems. And the Native Americans, they don't want an intrusion into the TCP but if you took away I-16 then that would, there may be a sufficient trade-off there that you could get the Eisenhower Parkway Extension.
Okay, the next item is the roundabouts. I don't want us to, it sounded like the last time it was pretty much written off. And, yet, I think that all the objections that you all raised the last month I have an answer to. To start off, there's a concern, a concern was brought that we compete with other communities where in the pursuit of commerce, where time is money. That was said during the roundabout thing. I think that there's a perception that because you're slowing traffic that you may be wasting somebody's time. If you remember the tortoise and the hare, the lesson of that was that slow and steady wins the race. And the physics, or the Federal Highways and everybody can tell you that even though you're slowing the traffic, the actual throughput of cars is greater. You can increase the carrying capacity of roads by having a slow steady stream instead of a bunch of quick stop, quick stop, quick stop. It's safer and you can carry more people, so you're actually saving time.
Also, when you're competing with other communities, what does it do if somebody, okay, if somebody is going to look at Columbus, Augusta and Macon. They come to Macon and find a roundabout, what are they going to think? If they're the kind of people you want, what they are going to see here is this, we have roundabouts. There's a snob appeal. It's like a European car. It is perceived all over the country, you go and find a roundabout that's done well, it shows that you're a cut above, just like if you drive a Jaguar or a BMW.
MR. OLMSTEAD: Or a Mercedes with that circle.
DR. HOLLIDAY: Like a Mercedes, absolutely. It's not a better car. The best cars are Japanese. But it's the perception. If you're trying to sell your community, that's important sometimes. So if all things were equal, suppose it was even less efficient than signalization, you still have that appeal. That's competition. That's how you win.
I keep seeing Forest Hill mentioned as an artery, and it was mentioned several times last time, and, yet, Forest Hill is a residential collector and not an artery, so I think we need to keep that in mind.
MR. FOUNTAIN: I don't think that's correct.
DR. HOLLIDAY: Okay. I'll do some more research and get back with you.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Please do.
DR. HOLLIDAY: Because several people assured me that it was not an artery. There is also a mention that the roundabouts were scary, kind of like if you watched speed skaters, how they cross in front of one another. Now, Federal Highways, it's unequivocal that roundabouts are safer. It's not maybe they're safer. They are definitely safer. So to bring up an analogy of speed skaters and weaving is inaccurate. There was a mention at two intersections we would have to bring a lot of dirt, and that's true. But the number of homes that would be saved, there would be considerable savings in dollars and it could be done quicker because we wouldn't have all the condemnations. So, yes, the dirt is the only thing --
MR. FOUNTAIN: Dr. Holliday, how do you handle pedestrian traffic at a roundabout?
DR. HOLLIDAY: If you'd look at the stuff I've given you, it shows how.
MR. FOUNTAIN: It doesn't seem to be very safe.
DR. HOLLIDAY: Well, apparently it's safer than signalization.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Because nobody ever has to stop, though. How do the people get across?
MR. QUEEN: Just don't get in that roundabout.
MR. CAUSEY: You cross before the roundabout.
MR. RYLE: Cross on the outside.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Completely around the outside. But sooner or later you've got to cross some leg of traffic.
MS. HANBERRY: Yield to pedestrians.
DR. HOLLIDAY: What's interesting about the pedestrians at the roundabouts is that you always only trap, you only cross one lane of traffic at the time. Like if I crossed up here, I've got to look left and right, and then left and right. But at a roundabout, you only cross one direction at a time and then you hit the median. So you only have to look one way, you stop, and then you have to look the other way. And that's also what makes them so much safer with cars. And it's just incredible if you do some research on this how much safer they are.
MR. ETHERIDGE: Actually, that's one of the problems with the roundabouts. It has a lot of good features but pedestrian and bicycle safety is one of the problems that you have with them.
DR. HOLLIDAY: I think that's only if they get in the roundabout. 
MR. ETHERIDGE: No, not the roundabout. It's actually crossing traffic because it never stops. You know, with a regular traffic signal, you have a protected crosswalk there where you get a walk sign to walk and nobody is going to hit you then and you're protected. But in a roundabout you never have that traffic that actually stops.
DR. HOLLIDAY: I'm glad you brought that up because that does --
MR. ETHERIDGE: The accident rate for pedestrians and bikes are higher than at normal intersections.
DR. HOLLIDAY: Well, I'm glad to hear -- That's the first I've heard you all concerned about pedestrians and bikers.
MR. ETHERIDGE: Well --
DR. HOLLIDAY: But I'm glad you brought that up because I want to talk a little bit about there are certain roundabouts where you might want to put a signal to stop traffic. They're so efficient, like at Forest Hill and Ridge, if you put a roundabout there, a single one, that's another issue. You all talked about a double lane. A single lane roundabout at Forest Hill and Ridge will, the throughput will be so great that there's not enough storage room at Vineville, even if you make it several lanes from there on out. And, so, one design feature is you can put sensors there, and when you're filling up that traffic storage, you can have a stop light back here in Forest Hill just to keep the people from going south to keep them out of the roundabout because that's how efficient this thing is going to be. You will overrun your traffic storage. So I'm glad you brought that up.
That's also how you can make, you know, there are pedestrian crossings at several places where there's not necessarily a light. You can punch a button for a crosswalk. So that's how you can, if it becomes a safety issue for pedestrians you can make, add a signal there just to keep people out of the crosswalk.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Is that all you have, Dr. Holliday?
DR. HOLLIDAY: No. (Answering cell phone). I'll have to call you back.
MR. QUEEN: Columbus got rid of their roundabout about 30 years ago.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Did they?
MR. QUEEN: You remember the old traffic circle down by --
MR. ETHERIDGE: That was a big one.
DR. HOLLIDAY: I'm glad you brought up traffic circles again because you're correct, it wasn't until ten years ago that we figured out how to do these things right. And if they aren't done right, they are extremely dangerous.
MR. QUEEN: Well, the one in Columbus was just, you know, very wide and it was just very confusing.
DR. HOLLIDAY: Right. Exactly.
MR. QUEEN: If you've driven much in Washington, D.C., all the plazas that you have to go around, it's very confusing.
DR. HOLLIDAY: I've been in Boston, too, where, you know, the rules, if you design them, it's just like an airplane jet engine, if it's designed right, you won't see a problem with it. If you do one little thing wrong, it blows up.
MR. QUEEN: They're not conducive to truck traffic, and, unfortunately, in Georgia we have a good deal of truck traffic.
DR. HOLLIDAY: I don't think that's accurate.
MR. QUEEN: Well, I mean if you look at our truck percentages, they're exceeding the national averages. Now, that's on certain corridors. I don't know just where the traffic --
DR. HOLLIDAY: These are designed for any kind of traffic. I'll refer you to the --
MR. QUEEN: Now, we have two prototypes in Carroll County. One in Whitesburg and one in Ruthsville. And I think the biggest problem that we have found is tractor-trailers cannot negotiate the roundabouts.
MR. RYLE: Well, if you build them so they can, your radius gets bigger and it takes up extra room. You can do it but it takes a lot --
MR. FOUNTAIN: It takes much more right-of-way to do it.
MR. WIKLE: They can, but they won't slow down enough to --
MR. QUEEN: Well, they have to stop. It's a stop condition on all four quadrants.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Well, the load shift, they get load shift when they go into them, so they don't like them.
MR. OLMSTEAD: Why have they got those in Carrollton, was it just for a study to see --
MR. QUEEN: It was.
MR. OLMSTEAD: -- if they actually were working?
MR. QUEEN: Uh-huh (affirmatively). And I believe they've been in place probably close to ten years.
DR. HOLLIDAY: I think that's actually where the DOT was sued by a judge in Carrollton and was forced to put the roundabout there.
MR. QUEEN: There was a dangerous intersection there.
MR. SCHOLL: The difference between a traffic circle and a roundabout, you all are talking about traffic circles, and Lindsay is talking about roundabouts. And if you're not aware of the distinction between the two, then you're comparing apples and oranges.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Let me say this. 
MR. QUEEN: I know the distinction. I'm familiar with traffic circles. Georgia had, I know of two, one in Savannah, and one in Columbus, and there very well may have been one here in Macon.
MR. FOUNTAIN: If I can suggest to you all, Georgia Tech has a short course in traffic engineering being taught in May if anybody would like to attend it. 
DR. HOLLIDAY: If they are teaching roundabouts I would appreciate it if you all would attend because the issues you all have brought up don't really make sense with what I have studied. So I'm going to leave it at that, and I'll bring back some drawings of Forest Hill Road if you all need to see what can be done next time. Thank you.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Thank you. Is there anyone else? Mr. Scholl. You all, please, if you would, limit your comments to five minutes, if you would, please.
MR. SCHOLL: I wanted to just mention quickly on the sidewalks, the original sidewalks when they, and the original roads, they used to use sand and they lasted for decades. Do you happen to know whether mortar or sand is planned for --
MR. ETHERIDGE: Sand.
MR. SCHOLL: Sand. Well, that's good. I'm glad to hear that. On Wesleyan Drive, the last we saw when we were talking about the plans, you all were still planning turning lanes where nobody turns, and we were quite, kind of surprised at that, and everything that we have said since then has fallen on deaf ears. I wonder if there's some way that the public can have some kind of input into the design and the plans right now so that we can have a happy agreement when you all finally get these plans out to the public.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Specifically, Tom, I don't know where you're talking about.
MR. SCHOLL: Well, there's two places. Right now you all are building a turning lane for a right-hand lane coming from Wesleyan College on Wesleyan Drive, you're building a turning lane to turn right onto Northside Drive where most people, if they are going in that direction on Northside Drive will turn on Tharpe. A lane for Tharpe makes sense right there. When we looked at your plans previously, when you come the opposite direction from Northside Drive toward Tharpe, you were planning a left-hand lane onto Tharpe, which simply brings you back to Northside Drive and where you came from. Absolutely nobody turns left there.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Well, that's not necessarily so, Tom. You've got to feed Maplewood through there. Maplewood feeds up through into Tharpe, and there is a movement that goes back into Wesleyan Woods.
MR. SCHOLL: Have you got any kind of traffic study that shows --
MR. FOUNTAIN: Anyway, we're okay with it. The engineers that designed it are okay with it.
MR. SCHOLL: Well, the public can't see the logic in it.
MR. FOUNTAIN: We'll bring it, is there another public meeting on this one? There'll be one more and you'll certainly be able to make your comments at the public meeting.
MR. SCHOLL: And I wonder how the public will begin to get the feeling that their comments don't fall on deaf ears. And that happens a lot with the Roads Program. I was talking to, trying to talk to you in a way that would relieve that feeling. But if we're going to get the same old thing and we're going to have our public fall on deaf ears, then we've got the same contentiousness.
I just wanted to -- let me make a recommendation to you that I know Vernon is planning to get a program that talks or designs roundabouts. Designing roundabout, an appropriate roundabout, is a very complicated thing. It considers a whole lot of things. Trucks. It considers volume. It considers just a million different things. And, so, they've got quite sophisticated programs that will tell you whether or not these things are appropriate for a particular place, and if it is appropriate for a particular place, it will design the roundabout for you and show you what the appropriate roundabout should look like. I hope you all will take a look at that and see whether or not some of these places are better served by a roundabout as opposed to a traffic light. I know Walter Kulash mentioned, I thought he was crazy at the time, but he mentioned the appropriateness of a roundabout, possible appropriateness for a roundabout on Wesleyan Drive at Tattnall where it has the traffic that twice a day is trying to turn into Tattnall and come out of Tattnall. The situation there has been remarkably resolved by a police officer who directs traffic, which is pretty much the same thing that a roundabout does. It may well be that that might well be an appropriate place and may well resolve a situation where you have a win/win. You have neighborhoods happy and you have the traffic flow that you're looking for.
I think that the roundabouts are going to give you that in several places. It may not be everywhere, but in several places it may provide you a win/win, keep the residents happy and keep the traffic flow that you're looking for. Thank you.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Thank you, Tom. Anyone else? (No response). Mr. Chairman, thank you for coming, as always. I know you've got a busy calendar. Anyone else? (No response).
MR. WIKLE: Old business?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Old or new business?
MR. WIKLE: We have received finally the permit for that little widening on Zebulon at the bridge.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Oh, God, I know the Chairman will be happy about that. We can go eat shrimp. We've got the permit. We've got a contractor already ready to go.
MR. ETHERIDGE: We're ready to meet tomorrow with DOT out on the site.
MR. FOUNTAIN: We need some press on that, guys. And with that, Bill, you've got signalization going on that ramp? That's good news. We've gotten good news today.
MR. WIKLE: The signal permits is our next step.
MR. FOUNTAIN: To get the signal permit on that, it is --
MR. OLMSTEAD: Are you going to start off with one set of lights on one side of the bridge or are you going to have signals on both sides?
MR. WIKLE: I think we're going to --
MR. OLMSTEAD: I asked you that question, and I'm not sure if I got the answer. You may have changed by now.
MR. WIKLE: We'll probably submit an application for both, but I think the critical one is really the one for the southbound ramp.
MR. OLMSTEAD: It would solve --
MR. RYLE: I know it would because I go through there quite a bit. People trying to make a left-hand turn going towards Lamar Road and then people trying to get off at the same place, it's just a nightmare.
MR. OLMSTEAD: Particularly with that bridge, the way it crests there.
MR. RYLE: Right.
MR. OLMSTEAD: And you can't see.
MR. RYLE: The problem we've got, with the development that's going on out there, it makes that area more attractive. And then you're going to start having cars backing out onto the Interstate. So if we don't get them off those ramps, we're going to have a problem.
MR. OLMSTEAD: That's good news.
MR. RYLE: It is very good news.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Mr. Queen had a question.
MR. QUEEN: Several months ago we talked about the Eisenhower at I-75 signal, and I believe I talked with Keith Rowland he said everything was permitted. Have you been --
MR. WIKLE: We've got a contract on that.
MR. QUEEN: I didn't --
MR. FOUNTAIN: What movement is that now?
MR. WIKLE: That is the southbound Eisenhower, excuse me, it's the southbound 75 off ramp onto Eisenhower Parkway to facilitate the left turn back toward Broadway.
MR. OLMSTEAD: Will it help the left turn on the cloverleaf?
MR. WIKLE: It will.
MR. FOUNTAIN: It will give a gap in that traffic.
MR. RYLE: And it will get the --
MR. WIKLE: One of the big objectives is we've got trucks going into downtown and driving out MLK in order to not have to make that left turn off of 75 in order to access the industrial area of the county, and we hope to get the trucks out of downtown.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Is there any other old or new business to come before us? If not, we'll --
MR. CAUSEY: Can I make a comment real quick, and he's going to kill me for doing it?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Yes.
MR. CAUSEY: But some of you all may know this, but Joe Johnson just passed his professional engineering exam.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Oh, has he. (Applause).
MR. RYLE: So he can be real famous now.
MR. FOUNTAIN: We're adjourned. Thank you all for coming.
(MEETING ADJOURNED)

CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
STATE OF GEORGIA
COUNTY OF BIBB.
I hereby certify that the within and foregoing record is a true, complete and correct transcript of the proceeding taken by me on the 4th day of April, 2002.
This 24th day of April, 2002.